RAUK - Archived Forum - Hatched Already?

I found this one in Dorset on Thursday:

It was tiny - surely one of this years?

Paul

Paul,

it must be this years as its so tiny. But it must have been an autumn mating and eggs partially incubated over the winter, otherwise 67 + 65 would have it a January mating - not with the jan we had this year.

Hi Will,

yes thats exactly what I mean. But I don't think its down to global warming, more sort of nature's insurance policy with the females taking any opportunity to mate that presents itself, just in case the males in local groups do not make it through the winter.

There certainly seems to have been many more sightings of autumn matings in the last few years but this may be down to people become more aware of nature generally.

Also, by early hatching the neos get a head start in response to dwindling numbers of prey items. If, in the usual course of events the neos hatch in august, september most of the baby frogs, toads etc have dispersed, whereas if a hatching of neos takes place in May, they can still catch the pre terrestial amphibs at the ponds.

Just theories

R

Despite its small size I believe it is one of last years young. I have found them like this in and around the previous years breeding heaps many times in the past.

On a site I survey I noticed the gravid females to be about 2-4 weeks behind on an average years breeding (spring was late and cold in the midlands) and I dont believe the breeding cycle could be so advanced for the time of year even in the south of the country

Regards

Stuart

I came across this youngster on the 10th May.

3 grams. 21.5cm total length

I have caught about 3-4 others this size, including one yesterday also weighing 3 grams

These ones have got to be last years?

In last years grass snake young thread ....

[QUOTE=JohnBaker]

Hi Chris,

I've found very small grass snakes at unexpected times of the year.  e.g. one weighing 4 g in May 07 and another weighing 3 g in May 08.  This is pretty much the weight of hatchlings.  This year I found another ten tiny grass snakes in June.  I didn't weigh these, but they looked hatchling size.  I assume that these are simply babies that have got off to a bad start in life and did not manage to grow at all between hatching and the following spring.  Given the cool summers of 2007 and 2008 it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that hatchlings might be appearing late in the year and going into hibernation without feeding and some of them still not managing to put on weight the following spring.

John Baker

[/QUOTE]

Stuart / John /Mark,

just because you are used to dealing with a certain set of circumstances and usually find the average in your studies, you simply cannot discount the fact that autumn matings may lead to stored eggs within the female over winter and an early start in spring, no one has yet proven it either way.

And Mark, the measurement you gave is the key to your find, ie 21.5cms or 215mm, when the hatchlings are around 150-160mm, so they have in fact grown irrespective of the weight.

Cheers

Rob

The neo in my picture was approx 15 cm.

I caught a bit of Springwatch a couple of weeks ago and Chris Packham produced a "hatched" grass snake egg from his mate's compost heap....

Paul

Hi Paul

I think I saw that bit too, but if it was the same clip I'm not sure he was suggesting it had hatched this season, just that it was an empty shell from some time in the past.

It sounds like we have several hypotheses as to the existence of tiny grass snakes at this time of year, all of which are possible and not mutually exclusive.  I am intrigued by the purpose of autumn matings, if grass snakes are unable either to store sperm or fertilized eggs over the winter (maybe they just enjoy it!) - perhaps someone has done research on the continent into this?  If not, it would make a good research project

Will

Blimey.  Herps on Springwatch.  That is an unusual.  I missed it.  I am not going to make any guess as to when these small grass snakes hatched.  Just an observation and a question.  Observation: grass snake egg shells can be very persistent.  I can find egg shells at this tmie of year from clutches that hatched last year (I am sure a biochemist could extract some useful anti-fungal agent from snake eggs).  Quesion: What was the weather like this year at the time eggs would have been deposited in order to yield hatchlings now?

John Baker

Hi Paul

I think I saw that bit too, but if it was the same clip I'm not sure he was suggesting it had hatched this season, just that it was an empty shell from some time in the past.

[/QUOTE]

I must admit I dismissed it at the time thinking that is was much too early - but then I found that tiny neo???

I was in Dorset the week commencing the 10th of April and although there were frosty nights the weather was VERY warm.....?

Paul

Hi Mark,

Yep - thats the one

Paul

I found this one in Dorset on
Thursday:

ipleyDorset18062010031.jpg">

It was tiny - surely one of this years?

Paul

?

Jon,

you don't know that its' down to global warming - prove it please. And while you're at it, prove that it's not a natural selective process mechanism within Grass Snakes adapting to the shortages of both males snakes and / or prey items.

 Cripes, is there anything worse than people that discount others theories / suggestions because they can't see past their own??

R

Hi Mark,

Yep - thats the one

Paul